Historically steam locomotives have a bad record with actual use of safety systems. IIRC accident investigators found that one locomotive retrofitted with the current minimum allowable safety equipment (TPWS) was routinely being operated in a "cut out" mode intended only for service use but in passenger service. In this mode no actual safety is achieved, the locomotive can (and does) for example pass danger signals without action - which is why accident investigators were looking at it, it had been involved in an accident which should have been impossible because it simply sailed through red lights like a distracted driver playing Candy Crush as their SUV rolls through a busy intersection.
On a typical "modern" (ie late 20th century) train like the mainline EMUs I would normally catch when I was a commuter decades ago, the equivalent "cut out" is a glass sealed MCB in the cab, a driver who wants to get rid of this safety feature has to destroy a tell-tale glass seal and company regulations will make them write up why it was necessary then replace it - and of course the automation records each occurrence because why wouldn't it. The paperwork is a faff, so is getting a new unique numbered seal, so drivers actually choose the non-risky option when it's available.
On the steam loco, that "cut out" is operated by cutting a cable tie. The cable ties aren't unique of course, and so investigators found countless broken ties littering the dirty cab of the steam locomotive, because you just cut the tie, do what you want and before signing off try to remember to fit a new cable tie. No actual safety delivered.
I know which company you mean, and I think the RAIB investigation found serious problems with the driver training and the management's approach to safety. One suspects they would also have broken the glass on the MCB if the attitude from above was "we'll give you hell if you're not at the destination on time, but we won't look too closely at how you do it". WCRC (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Coast_Railways) got banned from the network as a result until Network Rail was satisfied that the management took safety a bit more seriously.
The driver being prosecuted and sentenced in court may also deter future drivers from doing that again, especially if someone can show they're being pressured from above to do anything unsafe again, someone much higger up will be very, very upset with them.
Meanwhile in Germany, there was a head-on between two trains with modern safety systems on the train because the _signaller_ was playing games on his phone - I'm not sure if it was actually candy crush - and pressed the "just ignore this red and go at normal speed on to the single line" signal button without following any procedures like checking whether there's a possibility that there's already a train there.
Yeah, the steam operators raised hell over having to follow the central locking for doors and sealing of windows passengers could stick their head out of.
Wasn’t even prospective, preventative action. There was pretty rash series of decapitations/fatalities in the past decade of people who think sticking their head out of a moving train is risk free that lead to this ruling being made mandatory.
They kicked off claiming it would ruin the ambience, but really it cost a very pretty penny.
They’d do anything to save a few quid; it’s amazing how they used to get cheap oil lube and coal from Russia, and since the war they’ve miraculously been managing to procure the same rates from new companies that have appeared overnight/moved production to sanction-less countries just over the border like Latvia, Lithuania, Kazakhstan etc.
The "slam door" carriages survived way past their sell by date. I travelled on them in the 1990s. The only advantage is quick de-boarding .. because you can open the door while the train is still moving. Everything else about them is spectacularly dangerous 1800s levels of safety.
I'm confused about what exactly constitutes "slam door", because wikipedia says they were last in operation 2005, but there were definitely still the type of "open the window to open manually" type used on the Reading / Paddington line well after that. Is the difference that they had central-locking?
Which specific Lithuanian companies are you suggesting are supplying Russian oil and coal? I call bullshit. Anyone found doing that in Lithuania would get lynched.
As for calling them “sanction-less”, you clearly have no clue what you are talking about. Spouting nonsense based on a rudimentary understanding of the geography and little else.
I've driven under ETCS in a simulator before and i was surprised you need to interact with the screen at all during operation. ETCS doesn't have "attention" buttons you have to press like with the german PZB.
We had to stop & wait at various points on our return day trip for other passenger services to pass us. Had to wait for some freight services to clear a block at a few places too.
There was an auxiliary diesel unit not actively used apart from for power AFAIK (and additional emergency mobility should things go kaboom/excess wheel slip).
Maybe that has some the extra safety systems on it though.
In some sense I'm more surprised that someone spend time and money on building a new steam locomotive, rather than the fact that you can fit ETCS on one.
Sure, fitting modern signaling equipment on a steam train isn't easy, but it also doesn't feel impossible. Building a brand new steam locomotive, again, sure you can probably do it, but it seems like a lot of expensive work, requiring skills that hasn't been employed in decades and it's probably not really worth doing, financially speaking.
I’m a dynamics/kinematics engineer who gets consulted by steam locomotive companies often, and they’re very much worth doing financially speaking.
They certainly wouldn’t be your only venture, more “you have a lot of money and love trains” but seats on these things can run for £2k a head and they run basically every day from Spring through to end of Summer.
I know. At least use brass-plated plastic or whatever for the case.
I can’t believe there’s nothing more they could have done to make this more aesthetically pleasing within the £9m budget, for which we appear to have got a robust PC case and an admittedly complicated sounding power supply.
How does this cost 9m£? I mean, sure, it was exploratory, but come on, how do you spend that kind of money on sealing some components, adding an alternator and some sensors? What am I missing?
Historically steam locomotives have a bad record with actual use of safety systems. IIRC accident investigators found that one locomotive retrofitted with the current minimum allowable safety equipment (TPWS) was routinely being operated in a "cut out" mode intended only for service use but in passenger service. In this mode no actual safety is achieved, the locomotive can (and does) for example pass danger signals without action - which is why accident investigators were looking at it, it had been involved in an accident which should have been impossible because it simply sailed through red lights like a distracted driver playing Candy Crush as their SUV rolls through a busy intersection.
On a typical "modern" (ie late 20th century) train like the mainline EMUs I would normally catch when I was a commuter decades ago, the equivalent "cut out" is a glass sealed MCB in the cab, a driver who wants to get rid of this safety feature has to destroy a tell-tale glass seal and company regulations will make them write up why it was necessary then replace it - and of course the automation records each occurrence because why wouldn't it. The paperwork is a faff, so is getting a new unique numbered seal, so drivers actually choose the non-risky option when it's available.
On the steam loco, that "cut out" is operated by cutting a cable tie. The cable ties aren't unique of course, and so investigators found countless broken ties littering the dirty cab of the steam locomotive, because you just cut the tie, do what you want and before signing off try to remember to fit a new cable tie. No actual safety delivered.
I know which company you mean, and I think the RAIB investigation found serious problems with the driver training and the management's approach to safety. One suspects they would also have broken the glass on the MCB if the attitude from above was "we'll give you hell if you're not at the destination on time, but we won't look too closely at how you do it". WCRC (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Coast_Railways) got banned from the network as a result until Network Rail was satisfied that the management took safety a bit more seriously.
The driver being prosecuted and sentenced in court may also deter future drivers from doing that again, especially if someone can show they're being pressured from above to do anything unsafe again, someone much higger up will be very, very upset with them.
Meanwhile in Germany, there was a head-on between two trains with modern safety systems on the train because the _signaller_ was playing games on his phone - I'm not sure if it was actually candy crush - and pressed the "just ignore this red and go at normal speed on to the single line" signal button without following any procedures like checking whether there's a possibility that there's already a train there.
Yeah, the steam operators raised hell over having to follow the central locking for doors and sealing of windows passengers could stick their head out of.
Wasn’t even prospective, preventative action. There was pretty rash series of decapitations/fatalities in the past decade of people who think sticking their head out of a moving train is risk free that lead to this ruling being made mandatory.
They kicked off claiming it would ruin the ambience, but really it cost a very pretty penny.
They’d do anything to save a few quid; it’s amazing how they used to get cheap oil lube and coal from Russia, and since the war they’ve miraculously been managing to procure the same rates from new companies that have appeared overnight/moved production to sanction-less countries just over the border like Latvia, Lithuania, Kazakhstan etc.
The "slam door" carriages survived way past their sell by date. I travelled on them in the 1990s. The only advantage is quick de-boarding .. because you can open the door while the train is still moving. Everything else about them is spectacularly dangerous 1800s levels of safety.
I'm confused about what exactly constitutes "slam door", because wikipedia says they were last in operation 2005, but there were definitely still the type of "open the window to open manually" type used on the Reading / Paddington line well after that. Is the difference that they had central-locking?
Sorry, but sticking your head out the window is one of the greatest perks of going on a heritage train. That really IS about the ambiance.
Which specific Lithuanian companies are you suggesting are supplying Russian oil and coal? I call bullshit. Anyone found doing that in Lithuania would get lynched.
As for calling them “sanction-less”, you clearly have no clue what you are talking about. Spouting nonsense based on a rudimentary understanding of the geography and little else.
> like a distracted Karen playing Candy Crush as her SUV rolls through a busy intersection.
FYI this comes across a bit misogynistic! I'd word this differently
Yeah, I rephrased.
> We had to test whether or not you can even use a touchscreen while you’re hurtling along at up to 75mph
Who cares? This is a fucking train! DO NOT use a touchscreen!! Have we not learned anything from modern cars??
They care because if steam trains can’t adopt the signalling technology required by the modern UK railways they won’t be allowed to run at all.
I've driven under ETCS in a simulator before and i was surprised you need to interact with the screen at all during operation. ETCS doesn't have "attention" buttons you have to press like with the german PZB.
Caught a steam train that operates on the mainline in NSW, Australia last year.
https://www.picnictrain.com.au/
We had to stop & wait at various points on our return day trip for other passenger services to pass us. Had to wait for some freight services to clear a block at a few places too.
There was an auxiliary diesel unit not actively used apart from for power AFAIK (and additional emergency mobility should things go kaboom/excess wheel slip).
Maybe that has some the extra safety systems on it though.
> Maybe that has some the extra safety systems on it though.
That would be rare, usually the very first carriage has to have all the security systems.
In some sense I'm more surprised that someone spend time and money on building a new steam locomotive, rather than the fact that you can fit ETCS on one.
Sure, fitting modern signaling equipment on a steam train isn't easy, but it also doesn't feel impossible. Building a brand new steam locomotive, again, sure you can probably do it, but it seems like a lot of expensive work, requiring skills that hasn't been employed in decades and it's probably not really worth doing, financially speaking.
Edit: Apparently it is not uncommon to build steam locomotives: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steam_locomotives_of_the_21st_...
I’m a dynamics/kinematics engineer who gets consulted by steam locomotive companies often, and they’re very much worth doing financially speaking.
They certainly wouldn’t be your only venture, more “you have a lot of money and love trains” but seats on these things can run for £2k a head and they run basically every day from Spring through to end of Summer.
That's a lot more than I thought: I was aware of Tornado, but not that there had been quite a few more new build steam locos.
To see that touchscreen just bolted onto a literal steam engine, without adornment, steampunk enthusiasts must be dying inside.
I know. At least use brass-plated plastic or whatever for the case.
I can’t believe there’s nothing more they could have done to make this more aesthetically pleasing within the £9m budget, for which we appear to have got a robust PC case and an admittedly complicated sounding power supply.
How does this cost 9m£? I mean, sure, it was exploratory, but come on, how do you spend that kind of money on sealing some components, adding an alternator and some sensors? What am I missing?
How very steam punk
See also: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43737353